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Friday round-up ... "Church and state" issues pop up this week

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Fox 25
Rep. Mike Ritze's "Ten Commandments" dream becomes reality (and legal liability) at Oklahoma State Capitol.

By Andrew W. Griffin

Red Dirt Report, editor

Posted: November 16, 2012

reddirtreporter@gmail.com

OKLAHOMA CITY – Incredibly, there were not one but two examples of state-sanctioned folks – a legislator and a judge - ignoring the separation of church and state.

The one that has many in the state (and online) talking and chuckling – a very Homer-esque “D’oh!” moment – was when a 2,000-lb. granite block depicting the 10 Commandments was installed on the grounds of the Oklahoma State Capitol this week with misspellings.

Yes, this will likely be fodder for late-night comics and Zoo Morning Crew deejays and The Lost Ogle, as it should be.

This is because the 10 Commandments should not be there, despite the fact that U.S. Rep. Mike Ritze (R-Broken Arrow) is the legislator behind the granite monolith being placed there – and he and the monument-maker didn’t bother to conduct a “spell check” for words like “Sabbeth” and “maidseruant,” instead of the properly-spelled “Sabbath” and “maidservant.” As one commenter wrote: “Epic fail.”

Ritze not only introduced HB 1330 in 2009 (it would be overwhelmingly approved – 83-2 in the House, 38-8 in the Senate), he and his family put up the approximately $20,000 for both the monument and the base and other work connected to the monument.

Yet, the monument is not on private property - it's public property. This sort of stuff has run into challenges before (Judge Moore in Alabama, for instance ...). We expect lawsuits, as does Ritze, who promises no tax dollars would be used to defend any legal challenges. Ritze says the Liberty Legal Foundation will cover all costs. At least that's what he says ...

This 10 Commandments placement is simply another example of the Religious Right sticking their pious thumbs in the eyes of those who disagree with their interpretation of the Bible. A very un-Christlike approach, in our opinion. And as The Oklahoman reported, Ritze said the “monument re-emphasizes the history and heritage of America’s legal system. American laws came from English law, which is rooted in Mosaic law; the history of some of America’s law can be traced to the 10 Commandments.”

Fortunately, the ACLU of Oklahoma is keeping an eye on things, with State Director Ryan Kiesel telling The Oklahoman that “It’s disingenuous for supporters of placing this monument out there to say that this is purely historical in nature. For them to discount the religious and spiritual underpinnings of the 10 Commandments would be offensive to the many Oklahomans that include the 10 Commandments in their faith.”

Meanwhile, Muskogee County District Judge Mike Norman seems to think that young men found guilty of manslaughter should be required to go to church each Sunday for the next 10 years, rather than serving time for said crime. In this case. 17-year-old Tyler Alred got drunk, went driving and crashed his truck into a tree, killing his passenger, 16-year-old John Luke Dum.

Judge Norman, according to the Tulsa World, has “required church attendance with other defendants in the past.”

But it also raises other questions, as is noted when the World asked OU law professor Randall Coyne about the church-attendance requirement, doled out as “punishment.”

“It raise legal issues because of (the separation of) church and state,” Coyne told the World.

Indeed it does. But, boy howdy, this is Oklahoma, y'all. 

Of course nothing will come of it, unless Ryan Kiesel and the ACLU folks decide to do something. Regardless, sentencing someone to church is quite peculiar.

Copyright 2012 Red Dirt Report

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Jennifer Nov 18, 2012
*Should offenders be required to attend church?* If one is familar with "Drug Courts", an offender can be "sentenced" to attend AA or NA meetings. Usually, 90 meetings in 90 days is the norm. For probationers/parolees, attending these meetings and having the meeting monitor sign his/her attendence sheet is suitable, and represents, to the court, that said person attended-- where and when. For those not familiar with the Anonymous programs, they are based on the 12 Step philosophy of self-help with, and by, the help of others who suffer similar problems, ie, alcohol, drug dependence, etc. This form of treatment IS spiritually based. The meetings normally open with the Serenity Prayer, followed by discussions/readings, and end with The Lord's Prayer, found in the Christian Bible in Matthew 6:9-13. In the Christian understanding (mine), a "church" is not a building, but a body of people studying and helping each other. Religion has come to mean many things, but actually, "religion" is man-made. Spirituality is not. That's my take on things right now. Thanks!
Steve Long Nov 17, 2012
I just had another thought on this issue. Why don't we petition the legislature (and get somebody to put up the money) to construct a monument to the Bill of Rights too?
scoutgirl Nov 16, 2012
Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion. We can not and should not force people to attend any type of religious service. If the judge had said the man had to attend a mosque people would be outraged and they should be about this.
Andrew W. Griffin Nov 16, 2012
A very thoughtful and reasoned response, Mr. Long. I tend to agree with you on the ACLU side of things. I interviewed Ryan Kiesel, the state director for the ACLU, and plan to have a follow-up story over the weekend. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on RDR.
Steve Long Nov 16, 2012
I"m torn on this one. On one hand, the State Capitol is a public building and the placement of this monument seems to be an affront to religious liberty. But on the other hand, it was voted on by the legislature. If there really was a public outcry against placing the monument, then they should have contacted their legislators and complained about it. Perhaps, the will of the people could have been spoken at the final vote. Instead, it seems that most people either did not have a problem with it (as the case most likely is) or they seemly did not care enough about it (which could also be likely). I think I would have been more strongly against this if it had been paid for out of public funds but since the money for it was put up with private funds, I don't really have a strong opinion for or against the placement of the Ten Commandments. Personally, if somebody is a person that is offended by the Ten Commandments, I would say to them, in the nicest way possible, to not look at them. In regards to the last bit of this article that mentions the teen that got sentenced to church, I do not feel that it is the job of the judicial system to force someone to attend church services. Granted, he did not tell the boy what sort of church to attend so he wasn't necessarily advocated any sort of state religion on him, but the Constitution guarantees from of religion, even if that religion is no religion at all. I have a feeling that the ACLU is going to have a field day with this one and it will eventually be overturned.